More questions on sinking lines

[SteveL]

I am struggling to understand sinking flylines and every time I think I am getting close I get confused again. For this set of questions I am primarily interested in relatively fast sinking lines for tidewater use for shad, stripers, croakers, specks, and grey trout (and whatever else); I also use intermediate lines and I will save questions on those for another post. I pretty much assume that I need 2 or 3 lines for each rod to cover different conditions I appreciate any and all thoughts on this stuff!

I just purchased some Air-Flo Depthfinder Flyline in 200 grains to try for hickories on the Potomac with a 6/7 wt rod; several Flyboard members commented that they like this line for that use. It is supposedly denser than some others due to tungsten particles in the line; I think it has a 7 ips sink rate. It has a 30 foot full sink head attached to a floating line so it seems to me its really a sink tip. Is this the only kind of Air-Flo Depthfinder Flyline; is this what was recommended by some for hickories in big rivers like the Potomac?

I also purchased some Cortland 555 Quick Descent Fly Line for a 9 wt for stripers and whatever else I may get lucky enough to catch in the Bay. A number of flyfishers have recommended this line; I seem to remember that Capt. Brady spoke highly of it. I always assumed it was a full sinking line, but this is a 30 full sink section followed by an intermediate section–the full sink part is something like 6 ips sink rate. Is this the only kind of Cortland 555 Quick Descent Fly Line, or are there others that are sinking the entire length?

Cortland makes a full sink in Cortland 444SL Steady Sink Fly Line with several sink rates available, the fastest sinking one is 6.25-7 ips sink rate. Any thoughts on this line?

I have heard mention of "Walt's line", developed by boardmember Saltfly; what is the trade name of this line, who makes it, and where can you buy it.

I always heard lots of good stuff on the Teeny sinking lines, but the ones I saw for sale online were also sink tips. What is the favorite Teeny line? I noticed OMC posted that he dislikes Teeny, any other thoughts–good or bad--on this line?

So what are your go-to sinking line choices? Do you typically use ones that are what the rod is rated for or do you go up one wt–a 10 wt line on a 9 wt rod?

[OneMoreCast]

Full sink lines......are the bomb Steve. They cast much better than a shooting head type of intergrated sink line. I like to cast. I think it is just as much part of the game as tying flies and finding fish. You kind of launch those shooting heads. But that's just me...it's okay if you like them. My beef with Teeny is that in cold water or weather it tangles like nothing else in the world. The line just has a lot of memory. I strongly suggest avoiding it under all circumstances. If I had any left, I'd give it to you ...nah you're a nice guy..I couldn't do that to ya..

Orvis makes a great line called Density Compensated. It is a full sink. Casts like a dream and sinks like a stone...uniformly.
Take a lesson from the conventional guys. If the fish are suspended at let's say 20 ft..do you want your fly out of that zone as you are retreiving? As you retreive the shooting heads, they rise considerably. Some people will say that it imitates the bait trying to get away. Me, I'd rather have that fly on their nose for as long as possible. I don't think a dc line is ideal for fishing from the shore though. You will get snagged way too often.
For scraping the bottom in almost any current...Rio Deep 7. It casts better than t14. It sinks so effectively because it has an extremely thin diameter. This helps tremendously in any situation that heavy current is a factor. (hint hint hint)
These are just my humble opinions.....

[bhorsley]

i also use sink tip for our charter fishing --bluefish to amberjacks. I think more people use sink tips than fullk sinks.

To me sink tips like the Cortland QD or Rio DC, Striper DC or Deep Sea are much easier to handle and cast. I do have several full sinks but rarely use them.

[Flying Fish]

Wow, lots of questions. You're going to have to go out and try some lines. First, though, let me agree with OMC in preferring full-sink to sink-tip lines for any application I've found so far. They cast better, they sink better, and they allow you to keep the fly in the zone better. That goes for sink-rates from intermediate through super-fast, and it goes for rivers, the bay, and the ocean.

Many full-sink lines come rated by fly-rod weight, and I tend to follow those recommendations. If distance is a big issue, I might go lighter (that is a 7-weight line on an 8-weight rod), if it's not, then I might go a bit heavier.

With a Teeny sink-tip, I put a 130 grain on a 6-weight, 200 on a 7-weight, 250-300 on an 8-weight, 300-350 on a 9-weight, and 450 on a 10-weight.

FF

[OneMoreCast]

See Steve, everone is different. You can't argue with Brian about anything fly fishing that's for sure. (I'm not going to anyway .[wink] I think you should heed his advice. Rio products are awesome. Try different lines out and see what suits your style the best. I'm a bit off center but you knew that already.

edit....(so is Doug)

[bhorsley]

omc--
i guess it is personal preference. I got a couple of RIO Hyper sinks and they sink and stay down but for my big old numby fingers a little tough to handle.

And many of my clients are first time or once or twice a year saltwater anglers and sink tips seem to work better.

I like this thread--just rigging up for the up comming season--think i will try a Hyper sink again.

[OneMoreCast]

Brian....
Mike has nothing but great things to say about Golfito. He asked me to head out with you guys next year. I can't...but I'll be chillin in Costa with the crew in 2.
I'm glad you brought up hypersink. It is incredible. You are on the rio pro staff now right? Congrats.....get them to send you rio lake deep 7. Yeah...it tangles a bit..you have to use a stripping basket. But man, it'll get down to those reef donkey's in a heartbeat. Might be better for you or Sarah to cast than a 2 time sport.
We're going down to hatteras in a month for yellowfin. OH BABY!!!!!! Can't wait....I'm already thinking about the rigs.

I'll post on your board as to what the leader setup should be.

[bhorsley]

Sarah and i were both honored to asked to be on the Rio Pro Staff.
Just spooled up a hyper 10. will give it a shot.
Wish you could make the trip to Golfito next year but there is always the following year.

If the ajs are deep the best set up i have found is 1150 grain Tungsten Dredger and 13 wt.
Keep me up dated on the HAtteras Tuna --love them tunas

[Cutter]

Brian,

Maybe I should bring OMC down for AJs in june? It will appeal to the trout fisherman in him[grin]

As for lines, I'm going to try t14 heads on the wrecks this year, not because I like the way they cast, but because I don't want to trash a couple hundred worth of lines again.

Deep 7 is good for getting down, but tangles like a b**ch.

I'm just getting into Rio heads, but I like them a lot so far.

As always the answer is to cast a few differt things and see what works for you.

[bhorsley]

Cutter,
try the new rio running line --we used all winter and it was great with T-14--sinks like a stone

Oh yeah bring OMC --AJs are good for the soul

[Ken Tidy]

Funny thing last night I was looking at a Rio Lake Deep 7 line in my box of lines and thought I should give that thing a try, and I have no idea where it came from; sometime I swear these things just appear!

[Cutter]

Ken,

Tony snuck it in there when you weren't looking. If he keeps you tangled up, he gets to fish more.

Brian,

What is than running line called? I will try to get the local store to stock it if it is that good.

[msusawyer]

Seems like this thread got a little off track, lets see if I can wrangle it back in line.

From what I've read so far, it seems like everyone prefers full sinking lines to sinking heads because it keeps the fly in the target zone lognger

OMC - The other day you recommended a 250gr shooting head for a 6wt for shad in the potomac . is that the exception?

And, everyone recommends trying out a bunch of lines, but how does one go about doing that without shelling out money for each one (or is that the only way)?

Since I'm just getting started with flyfishing and am still in the process of buying what's needed, this is the perfect opportunity for the board to guide me in my selection. So whats it gonna be?

[TMM]

OMC-

I see that Orvis has that "density compensated" line in different
sink rates from 1 1/2' per second to 6' per second. I am guessing you prefer the fastest sink rate?

[OneMoreCast]

Yep...class V. I'd take a serious look at hypersink from rio too. It sinks a little faster me thinks.

Just caught yours Sawyer. Yeah, potomac from shore 250 cortland qd 6 wt is prime. Since I never really know if I'm getting a boat until I get to fletchers...I just bring the 250. It seems to get er done!!!
It boils down to this...I have wayyyy to much line and equipment. Knowing what works for you and what you like just takes time. Borrow a friends rod when out on a boat. Stuff like that. Orvis is having their monster sale in Va in a few weeks. That would be a very good time to pick stuff up.
You did well tying the other day. I hope you stick with it.

[msusawyer]

OMC

Yeah I plan on going to the Orvis sale and spending a few sheckels.

I'm looking forward to tying a few of those pickeral flies as soon as I can find some copper flash, no one has it. Either today or tomorrow I hope to try my hand at a deceiver or two. Before too long I may be hosting my own fly swap. Thanks again

[bhorsley]

Over the past 10 years we have used Cortland OD, SA Streamer Express and RIO Stripers all sink tips. Not many complaints for us or our customers. Intergrated lines are still my go to lines if is am fishing deep.

Will try a Rip Hyper Sink this spring on one rod--but the rest will have intergrated lines

[Ladyfish]

SteveL,

You already have Walt's line..."Cortland 555 Quick Descent Fly Line"

Interesting what folks use. I used a 15' sink tip (full line) on a 5 wt. rod for shad last year and was hooking up 2-fers on tandem rigs. I suspect the difference is based on how deep you have to go to get where the fish are holding.

Nice discussion...and timely.

[Flying Fish]

Msusawyer: I think many of us have learned by trial and error and by accumulating too many fly lines. Seems to me I have a full sink line that I'm willing to give away, and if you want it, you're the lucky person. Email me at dpolican@nas.edu if you want it. I think it's for about a 7-weight. If you want it, I'll check and let you know on Thursday what it is.

Brian: I forgot that you need to consider the people who are fishing with you, and maybe it makes more sense for newbies to use a sink-tip.

OMC: Isn't 250 gr too heavy for a 6-weight?

All: I've found the Rio Hypersink lines to be the fastest-sinking I've used, but so far not as fast as the lead-core line a friend uses on my boat.

FF

[djones]

Ladyfish originally wrote:
SteveL,

You already have Walt's line..."Cortland 555 Quick Descent Fly Line"

Interesting what folks use. I used a 15' sink tip (full line) on a 5 wt. rod for shad last year and was hooking up 2-fers on tandem rigs. I suspect the difference is based on how deep you have to go to get where the fish are holding.

Nice discussion...and timely.



You do your shad fishing on the Susky tribs, I believe. Flyfishing the Potomac at Fletchers, I've had to go deeper with rigs as described above. On the Rapp in Virginia in the past, a 5 foot sink tip was sufficient.

Like managing a retail business: it's location, location, location.

[AlexT]

Mark I'm going to bet that Brian is talking about the Rio Intermediate running line. I'm using a few spools of it for my shooting heads and it is awesome. Thin but manageable, shoots like a rocket, and cuts through the water.

[bhorsley]

AlexT--yep you are right the new on that is light clear blue/green
i cut the front loop off and permentaly join the T-14 to the running line with braided mono. Make my heads of T-14 32' long and it sinks like a rock

[Chris Newsome]

I've found that full length fast sink lines are more accurate and can be false cast a short distances (less than 60'). For 90'+ casts with minimal false casting & large flies I think that shooting heads or integrated head lines are the way to go. With a head you have an extremely dense line carry a virtually weightless running line, however, with a full sink you have the heaviness throughout which cuts down on distance. Also, a 30' head is much heavier than the first 30' of a full sink, this is why a head will carry large flies farther.

As for the original post, the Airflo Depthfinder is also made w/ an intermediate running line. I like the Airflo 40 Plus series of lines. They are unique in that each line is given a line weight instead of a grain weight (grain weight is used in the designation of all other integrated head lines). This makes choosing a line to match a rod much easier for most people. Also, the integrated heads of the 40 Plus lines come in varying sink rates unlike the competition.

Chris

[Ladyfish]

The problem with line weight instead of grain weight (why can't we have both) is that today's line weights and rods have so many variables. As an example Lefty changed out the line on a TiCRx at tyfest 'cause the Wulff TT that was on the 8 wt. was too light. He said the rod was designed for a heavier WF8F and he then overlined with a Wulff 9wt. to get it to perform.

I have a 7/8 wt. x 12' two handed surf rod that needs 370 grains to load. A 7/8 wt. spey line weighs about 800 grains. If I buy the line size I'm in trouble!

[Tissy Furnes]

I find the line weight thing to be quite bogus.

My go to Potomac shad line is #8 Scientific Anglers Wet Cell 4. It was at the time their 2nd fastest sinking line. I don't know its grain weight (300-350 maybe?). It sinks good and catches fish. I use it on my 5 weight and it casts fine though it meant for an 8 weight. It casts fine on my 8 weight too.

I have a #8 Lefty Professional Series Intermediate Line which I use on my 8 weight. It casts like a dream. I have #8 floater too (I think it is a Triangle Wulff). It casts like I'm trying to throw a feather. My #5 sink tip casts better on my 8 weight rod than this floater does. Maybe I should use the Wulff on my 5 weight.

Bottom line I've learned and many others have repeated. Bring your rod and cast the line with it before buying the line. Cuz' ya just never know.

[Chris Newsome]

Tissy is right that test casting a line on your rod is really the only way to know if you will like it.

For the average fly fisher, line wt is a more familiar concept than grain weight. Plus the grain weight at 30' is just as arbitrary as the line wt concept. Take an Airflo 40 Plus with a 36' 7ips sinking head. The grain weight at 30' neglects the remaining 6' of heavily weighted head. The same holds true for a distance floating line with a 50' head/rear taper. How about a triangle taper vs a bass or saltwater taper of the same grain weight at 30'. The majority of the weight of the TT would be near the rear while the majority of the weight of the bass or SW taper would be in the front, thus these two lines of identical grain weight will cast differently. For grain weight to be effective the line needs to be broken down into small intervals (5' maybe?) and the grain weight at each interval designated. This may be the best way for advanced fly fishers to determine how a line will perform without test casting it. But this still neglects other variables such as line diameter at different parts of the taper, etc.

Chris