Any handwriting experts on the board........

[john pearce]

Probably not going to figure out my mom's estate with my sister so it means we are going back in front of a Judge I think next tuesday. Well we want to go in loaded for bear so my sister has a document that everybody says she made up but in reality it says all the money my mom gave to her and her husband was a loan.
On the document it looks like somebody wrote my moms initials and the date and my sister wrote " thanks mom I love you, loan paid in full". We aren't talking about $1,000.00, we are looking at between$60,000 and $80,000 so now I'm trying to find a hand writing expert to give this document to and also give that person a hundred or hundred and fifty other documents that show how my mom always made her letters to disprove what is on my sisters paper . Any help would be greatley appreciated. I'd even take some names if any of you out there know somebody who does this stuff. Many thanks in advance and Happy Holidays to all TF'ers and their families. Cell is 443-604-5205 Home is 410-870-3091

[ffnpt]

It's a damn shame you have to deal with something like this to settle an estate. Good luck on your search and God Bless.

[SeaNic]

That's way too bad... in addition to a handwriting expert, sounds like you need a good lawyer/PI to find out all you can about the 'situation' between your mom and sis....

[gotboost]

Can't help much...But I wish you the best...

[5th Tuition]

JP; wishing you all the best this holiday season. Sorry you have to worry about family troubles. I hope fishing gets you away from it all for a little while. 5th (Marty)

[john pearce]

ffnpt - there's one in most families, in our's it's our sister

SeaNic - allready have the lawyer covered, just need to get her document disproved'

gotboost - thanks

5th - I hope WX co-operates, I have a 5 day window for CBBT at X-Mas so I hope I get some fair WX or it might turn into a day run to OC or something.

[WiFiGuy]

So your sister went to your mom and was loaned some money. Your mom gave her the money as a loan and wrote up a document that detailed the loan. Your sister never repaid the money but now is claiming that she in fact did and is using the original loan doc as proof since it now carries a hand written "loan paid in full" with your Mom's initials next to it.

First off, I'm no expert in this sort of thing, but I can't imagine that the document that your sister has proves anything. Initials and not a signature? The hand-written message "loan paid in full"? Without a notary seal I wouldn't think that a judge would pay any attention to it all.

Also, if the loan was paid in full, then there has to be some record of the payment or payments. Unless you sister and husband paid your mom back in cash that was found in a well, then your sister should be able to produce some cancelled checks made out to you mom, i.e. $10K per month for 6 months, that would back her claim. Also, your mom's checking / saving accounts would also show the deposits roughly coming in at the same time that checks or withdrawals were made from your sister's accounts.

Where or how did your sister get the money to repay the loan? If she and her husband won the lottery or sold something they owned, then there would be some proof that they at least had the money at some point and COULD have paid off the loan. Again, there has to be something way more concrete than a hand written note that can be produced to prove or disprove what really happened.

Bank records will most likely be your sister's undoing here. She can fake a note and your mom's initials, but she can't fake or gloss over financial transactions to the tune of $60K to $80K.

I think I'd let her know that you're getting a hand writing expert and then I'd also remind her that fraud and perjury are serious crimminal offenses. The prospect of going to jail might set her and her husband straight.

These things are horrible to go through and I feel for you. My wife's mom saw something similar happen when her stepson showed up the day after his dad died and grabbed a ledger book that documented a bunch of loans made to him. He never said word about the loans to his brothers and sisters. He essentially did what your sister is trying to do to you. Though he got away with screwing over his own family members, his life since has been a mess. He's always broke, can't keep a job, has been foreclosed on, has tax liens, etc.

Good luck with all of this and hopefully everyone will get what is rightfully theirs.

[philk999]

John sorry to hear you are still dealing with this situation. The only thing I could think of is I would think proscutors use hire outside experts in fields like that for trials, maybe call the DA's office in your county and see if they can recommend some one.

[C-Hawk18]

SeaNic - allready have the lawyer covered, just need to get her document disproved'



John,

Your Lawyer should already know an expert, if he/she has handled many of these cases on a regular bases. If they do not have one, and you do not have 120% of your confidence in them from some other source, (personally) I think I may look elsewhere.

[Striper In]

Forensic Accounting..like Wifi posted...will be her downfall.

Sorry to hear about that family crap....hope 2010 puts an end to her BS for you and your family....





So your sister went to your mom and was loaned some money. Your mom gave her the money as a loan and wrote up a document that detailed the loan. Your sister never repaid the money but now is claiming that she in fact did and is using the original loan doc as proof since it now carries a hand written "loan paid in full" with your Mom's initials next to it.

First off, I'm no expert in this sort of thing, but I can't imagine that the document that your sister has proves anything. Initials and not a signature? The hand-written message "loan paid in full"? Without a notary seal I wouldn't think that a judge would pay any attention to it all.

Also, if the loan was paid in full, then there has to be some record of the payment or payments. Unless you sister and husband paid your mom back in cash that was found in a well, then your sister should be able to produce some cancelled checks made out to you mom, i.e. $10K per month for 6 months, that would back her claim. Also, your mom's checking / saving accounts would also show the deposits roughly coming in at the same time that checks or withdrawals were made from your sister's accounts.

Where or how did your sister get the money to repay the loan? If she and her husband won the lottery or sold something they owned, then there would be some proof that they at least had the money at some point and COULD have paid off the loan. Again, there has to be something way more concrete than a hand written note that can be produced to prove or disprove what really happened.

Bank records will most likely be your sister's undoing here. She can fake a note and your mom's initials, but she can't fake or gloss over financial transactions to the tune of $60K to $80K.

I think I'd let her know that you're getting a hand writing expert and then I'd also remind her that fraud and perjury are serious crimminal offenses. The prospect of going to jail might set her and her husband straight.

These things are horrible to go through and I feel for you. My wife's mom saw something similar happen when her stepson showed up the day after his dad died and grabbed a ledger book that documented a bunch of loans made to him. He never said word about the loans to his brothers and sisters. He essentially did what your sister is trying to do to you. Though he got away with screwing over his own family members, his life since has been a mess. He's always broke, can't keep a job, has been foreclosed on, has tax liens, etc.

Good luck with all of this and hopefully everyone will get what is rightfully theirs.

[mikeg]

As a geriatric psychiatrist stuff like this happens all the time.Often terminally ill or demented family members are asked to sign papers they don't understand.At times visits at nursing homes have to be supervised to prevent visitors from bringing in paperwork (I also briefly worked for adult protective services which tries to prevent seniors from being exploited).Suprise documents and questionable paperwork is common.I agree with the others that a competant attourney should help you assess this document and present the facts to the court.Hopefully your sister will not have the $$$ for a good lawyer if she is a deadbeat and that will be in your favor.The biggest difficulty is if the court finds in your favor did your sister already spend the bucks and how would you get that back?

[StepChild]

Probably not going to figure out my mom's estate with my sister so it means we are going back in front of a Judge I think next tuesday. Well we want to go in loaded for bear so my sister has a document that everybody says she made up but in reality it says all the money my mom gave to her and her husband was a loan.
On the document it looks like somebody wrote my moms initials and the date and my sister wrote " thanks mom I love you, loan paid in full". We aren't talking about $1,000.00, we are looking at between$60,000 and $80,000 so now I'm trying to find a hand writing expert to give this document to and also give that person a hundred or hundred and fifty other documents that show how my mom always made her letters to disprove what is on my sisters paper . Any help would be greatley appreciated. I'd even take some names if any of you out there know somebody who does this stuff. Many thanks in advance and Happy Holidays to all TF'ers and their families. Cell is 443-604-5205 Home is 410-870-3091

Yep!!! That post above looks like your writing JP!! :yes::D;-)

Seriously, I hope you can get this all worked out with your family members. I know it has been a loooong difficult process for you and your family.

BTW- I'd 2nd what WiFi sez....there's gotta be a way to prove the payments, or recieving of such, with that amount of $. A hundred bux a week for 11 1/2 years would equate out to $60k...what was the date of the original loan vs. when it was "paid off"? Start playin with those numbers and see if its even financially possible with out the help of the lottery or some other kind of "quick cash".

[crabby and son]

John, If some one needs a loan, it usually means that they are broke. To repay a loan, you must have the money. The money leaves a trail just like water does. All you need is an audit to find out what is going on, not a handwriting expert. An audit will turn her inside out.All transactions over $10,000.00 must be reported to the IRS.I don't know ANY ONE who would repay a $60,000.00 loan with cash unless they were ducking the IRS so there is another avenue for you to take.....Gary

[dc20fisher]

John, I've had good experience with Ron Morris of Ronald N. Morris and Associates, Inc. (540)586-6681/ RNmorris@erols.com of Bedford, Virginia. Close to forty years in the field of questioned document examination. Good luck. Dennis.

[JPritch]

Great advice guys.

Sorry to hear of your trouble. You're right, every family has one. Makes me sick that people are so quick to screw over their own family for the sake of some money. Seen it happen too many times.

[Popster]

John, If some one needs a loan, it usually means that they are broke. To repay a loan, you must have the money. The money leaves a trail just like water does. All you need is an audit to find out what is going on, not a handwriting expert. An audit will turn her inside out.All transactions over $10,000.00 must be reported to the IRS.I don't know ANY ONE who would repay a $60,000.00 loan with cash unless they were ducking the IRS so there is another avenue for you to take.....Gary

Only problem is that they will claim that mom "forgave" the loan, thus no money trail....

[Sandshark]

Do not try to do this without an attorney experienced in such matters. Yes, lawyers cost money but they usually earn their keep. Where are you located? The Maryland Bar Association has a Lawyer Referral Service that would likely put you in touch with a number of attorneys who could help you. Or send me a private message if you want to talk further about your options.

[WiFiGuy]

Only problem is that they will claim that mom "forgave" the loan, thus no money trail....

I wouldn't say a word about the loan until you get in front of the judge. If you or your lawyer asks about the loan and your sister makes the statement that she paid it off, then it will be on record. Once that claim is made, I would think that the "forgave" avenue would then be closed to her. Now you can go after the money trail in an effort to disprove that it was ever paid off.

The "forgave" thing would probably have been the better way for your sister to dodge this debt. Good for you that she didn't think of it when she was forging the "paid in full" note.

Again, retain counsel and go with what they say. Any statements to sis from you should indicate that you're awyered up and are planning to stay that way until the truth comes out. If she's lying about the pay off, she won't want to fight this in court and get caught lying.

[rj]

John
Heed the advice of those here that said to make sure you have a lawyer who is experienced in these matters. they should already be familiar with & have the necessary resources to deal with this kind of mess.


here is a link reference to the American society of Questioned Document Examiners.
American Society of Questioned Document Examiners (ASQDE) (http://www.asqde.org/)

[GradyBaby]

Yep!!! That post above looks like your writing JP!! :yes::D;-)

Seriously, I hope you can get this all worked out with your family members. I know it has been a loooong difficult process for you and your family.

BTW- I'd 2nd what WiFi sez....there's gotta be a way to prove the payments, or recieving of such, with that amount of $. A hundred bux a week for 11 1/2 years would equate out to $60k...what was the date of the original loan vs. when it was "paid off"? Start playin with those numbers and see if its even financially possible with out the help of the lottery or some other kind of "quick cash".

JP Andy is on to something. If she made payments on a loan that big where did the income come from?

[Porkchunker]

In this case, the IRS could be your best friend. If she paid it off, your mom's tax records should show some amount of interest income from the loan. If there is no evidence of that, then your sister got an $80k windfall that she may have not reported to the IRS. The IRS doesn't like people hiding windfalls from them.

[john pearce]

WiFi - while mom was in Hospital my sister claims mom wrote loan paid in full and initialed and dated it as a forgiven thing, only thing is the numbers for the date as well as her initials don't match over 200 documents I have to disprove her. Just hope the Judge see's her for what she really is.

phil - I think we are using one in Joppatowne

C-Hawk - Lawyer didn't bring it up, I got the ball rolling first

Striper - thanks, I sure hope the Judge socks it to her

mikeg - my moms house is selling for $410,000.00 so we want our money from her cut.

Andy - she never paid it back, she says mom said it was a gift

crabby - read above

[john pearce]

dc - if the local one doesn't pan out I'll call him, thanks

JP - I've heard that for a long time and it happened to my old neighbors wife across the street where one of her sisters got her mom to sign the house over to her thus screwing the other two sisters and then I get it first hand

Popster - thats what she's saying

SandShark - we've had one for a few months

WiFi - think I cleared that up on page one

rj - have one and crossing the fingers in the hopes that justice prevails

Hank - she didn't have it, her and her husband were always broke and boworring for many years, again she says mom forgave all loans but she was the only child that had a loan, the document was dated Oct.3 and my sister told us about it on the day my mom passed, after she was allready gone , very approiate, no way to ask her.


really guys thanks for all the chatter and suggestions, we go back to the Judge this coming Tuesday so we'll see what happens.

[john pearce]

Pork - if it turns out that the document isn't real meaning she forged it we might press charges and get the IRS in on it as well, we offered to take $11,000 from her portion and then all would be forgotten but she didn't take the offer.

[john pearce]

Brandon or whoever is moderator tonight, thanks alot, something I really needed help with and you move my post, now hardly anybody will read or see it, yes it was an O.T. but everybody does O.T.'s on the Ches. Board and they don't all get moved.

[WiFiGuy]

This crap burns me up because my wife and her sisters got screwed over by an evil step mom when their dad died. My wife's dad was fine one day, then diagnosed with an agressive brain tumor the next. They tried to do surgery on him to give him a couple additional months, but it really only took away his ability to think and reason.

He was fixing up a couple of row houses in Baltimore before he got diagnosed. His plan was to fix them up and then sell them at a small profit. After his surgery, the evil step mother (she was the executor of the estate) sold the properties. We didn't think anything of the sale until we recieved a fax out of the blue from a bank informing us of a loan that was in default.

Seems the old man had used some property that he owned as collateral to raise cash to fund his row house flipping operation. Instead of retiring the loan with the proceeds from the sale of the properties, evil step mom refused to pay the old man's debt with funds in the estate. She directed the bank to come after the daughters since they were supposed to inherent the property and had the most to lose if it went into foreclosure.

The net of all of this is that we had to come with about $30K in about a week's time in order to stave off the bank's foreclosure on the property. I came home from work one day to find my wife crying and holding the fax--that's how we found out what was going on. Evil step mother never once mentioned the loan or sat down with us and explained what was happening.

In the end we kept the property out of foreclosure and my wife and her sisters did get the deed when the estate closed. They had to sell the property immediately once it transferred since we (me and my wife) used our money to pay the sisters' shares and they couldn't pay us back.

Evil step mom rode off into the sunset with a nice chunk of change and hasn't been heard from or seen in 5+ years. To think that we got this treatment from this beast after spending 18 Christmas Eve's with her and letting her hold our kids in the hospital just after they were born.

Hopefully, things will work out for you. Maybe your sister will even someday understand that what she is trying to do is wrong.

Good luck.

[StepChild]

Hey John...

Got any updated info or details on how this all worked out???

[john pearce]

No updates as of now, they gave us a deal which they came up with and it basically said that we would split the house 3 equal ways, then after that my sister would pay my brother and I $11,000 each, we knew this was way more than what she owed but we both agreed to it just to be done with her, well one day I had to meet her to co-sign a check to pay for something( bank finally changed their tune and made estate checks with both of our names on them, well my sister while I was signing the check said I hope the next mediation goes O.K., I told her I thought we were already done with it and she said she sort of had a vision while reading the document and asked herself why do I have to pay the boys any money, I don't owe any money, I paid the loan back, so on one hand she said "mom said " the loans were forgiven, then it was she had a document showing that mom forgave the loan, then she says to me that she had paid the loan back and didn't owe anything, well thats 3 totaly different stories, our last mediation session resulted in nothing, now we are in the fact finding mode where we are asking her questions that she has to answer under oath and the gave me stupid questions to answer as well but they really have nothing to do with our case, they just feel that if she has to answer questions then I shoulld have to answer some too. Our next court date is in May so we're getting closer, I hope we go with a handwriting expert and her document comes up as not moms initials and a forged document and my brother and I will press criminal charges against her and hopefully get her thrown in jail and maybee make her pay the legal fee's, I'll keep you all posted