Geo Thermal ?

[Dae]

If trenching for the radiator coil, how deeps does the trench need to be?

How long does does the trench need to be?

Assuming one can dig their own trench, anyone have any idea on the cost if installed by an installer?

Can parts be gotten that a homeowner can do the installation themselves?

I'm just wondering out loud because if I can get some spare cash, assuming I can keep costs down by doing most of the work, I'd like to convert my Propane/AC unit so I have Geothermal as primary AC/Heat and the propane heat as backup (Emergency Heat).

Thanks,

- Dae

[f26tiger]

Do a google search on installation instructions, lots of info there. It seems doable to me, I would like to do the same. Hope you and everyone else is able to take advantage of the earths free resources, but I believe there will be to many roadblocks set up by many! (energy companys oil companies installation companies etc.) Labor charges that I have seen go above 20k for less than a week worth of work? A friend had it installed for 13,000 but his wife worked for the company. If you are able to do the installation please pm me and fill me in on the details. Carefull though you may be put on a hit list :eek2:

[creekdweller]

We just put geo thermal in our house toward the end of last summer. We did not do it ourselves, and hats off to you for wanting to try this. I will share our info, for what it's worth. We have a large house - @ 5000 sq. ft. WE had previously one 4 ton unit and one three ton unit. Our lot is relatively small, so a horizontal system was not in the cards. We had five wells drilled to roughly 500' to accomodate eight tons equipment, all wells are connected and then run to the two geo thermal units. The wells cost $16000, but the guy that drilled them is a friend and he did them for "cost". The two replacement units cost roughly the same as it would have cost to replace the heat pumps, which we needed to do anyway, but the installation was more expensive, because it's more involved than simply rewiring the outside units. THese units are inside, and so you have to runt the electric (and water) to them. Chilltrol installed ours, and they were absolutely terrific. The drilling took about two weeks, then the yard had to be regraded and seeded, and then Chilltrol put the new units in. The install took about ten days. We really are enjoying the system - it works great - every room in the house is the same temp. I am not sure how long it will take to recoup the cost differential, but I'm expecting the greatest savings to come during the summer AC months. I have turned on the AC only twice this year, but it is absolutely amazing how quickly the temperature moves. I think it recouped from a 9 degree thermostat adjustment on our upstairs (hot) level in about 30 minutes.

[CSLUG]

Look into "dx geothermal" or "direct exchange geothermal". More efficient and cheaper the drilling water wells and pumping water.

Most geothermal companies are well drillers... there is a reason they want to drill wells and it has nothing to do with saving you money.

[Bryansfish]

My friend has one but has had trouble with their unit and I'm not sure who installed theirs. The biggest problem is who to call when their is a problem with the system. Their is the Co. who installs the unit and a Co. who drills the wells. So if you call the co. which works on the unit and its a well issue then you have to pay them for the vist and then call the well guy.

[Ballzzz]

We do geo thermal work. Waterfurnace is the best ground sorce hp money can buy. If you have some questions call our office and ask to speak to Chris Lochart. He is my service manager and he can help withjust about any questions. 804-745-0294 or our web site goodmanphc.com and go to the ask a tech form. it goes right to his inbox. Goodluck

[POLECAT]

My neighbor installed a ground loop system in his new home. He was a Balto Gas & Electric employee and had the benefit of BG&E's resources. Their engineering dep't. had all sorts of monitoring devices connected to his system and was heavily involved with the design and installation.

Needless to say, the system would not transfer heat well enough to make his house comfortable either in summer or winter.

After a couple years, leaks developed that were difficult to find and the yard had to be torn up to locate them..... more than once.

To fix the problem he yanked it out and installed an LP gas system. He has since relocated to Arizona.

My own thoughts: Digging a trench for a closed loop system and back filling it with the earth that was removed to make the trench may not be the best thing to fill the hole with. Not all soils conduct heat away from the tubes at the same rate. I'd do some heavy research in that area if I were going to use that style system.

Other than that, I know practically nothing about the subject. Hire someone who specializes in those systems and has been in business for more than 10 years.

[CSLUG]

Follow the link.... watch the video.

How it works | EarthLinked Technologies (http://www.earthlinked.com/residential/how-it-works)

[V.B. wells & irrigation]

Polecat just hit the nail on the head. Installing GeoThermal is best left up to a knowledgable, experienced company. Closed loop is great when properly designed and installed. I don't know anything about the horizontal trenched systems. I would guess that they are less efficient than loops. As far as problems that his friend had, it sounds to me like the system was undersized and installed poorly. I've done hundreds of them and never had a leak. Back when closed loop was gaining popularity, some companies came up with ways to make the install quicker. Primarily, they started making pre fabed manifolds with stab fittings. This made installing your manifolds (which ties all of your loops together) much quicker than fusing them. I think that they are junk. I fuse everything. Its basically welding. The proper certification for this process allows a 20 warranty on the system. The stab fittings have a rubber o-ring. Rubber deterioates over time. God. I can't imagine having a leak in a manifold 4 feet deep and under a driveway. Good luck.

[POLECAT]

Is it both legal (Poquoson, VA) and an efficient method to use water near the bulkhead area of waterfront property for heat/cool transfer in a home heating unit?

Two methods could be employed; a closed loop in the water, or a pump and return of water back into the tributary. Which would be most efficient?

Thanks in advance for your input.

[cuhollow]

If trenching for the radiator coil, how deeps does the trench need to be?

How long does does the trench need to be?

Assuming one can dig their own trench, anyone have any idea on the cost if installed by an installer?

Can parts be gotten that a homeowner can do the installation themselves?

- Dae

I am not sure about the depth of the trench but I am guessing 4-6 feet.

The length of the trench will depend on your home size. You can run parallel trenches but you will need several hundred feet at the least and could be thousands of feet.

If you have the space (trenching takes up a lot of space verse drilling) and the ability you can save a lot of money.

I would dig the trench and leave the pipes stubbed out for a professional installation. A large portion of the expenses is usually the drilling when trenching isn't an option. I see someone quoted 5 - 500’ wells for $16,000 (at cost) but prices I heard for 12 - 300’ wells were from $50,000-$100,000 so I expect you would have to pay a lot more than $16,000. Horizontal trenching is significantly cheaper….

[CSLUG]

Air exchange is the least efficent, pumping water is better but the best is direct exhange. Cheaper to install, cheaper to heat and cool... no large lot needed no well drilling.

Finding someone to do it is another matter.

[V.B. wells & irrigation]

Open H2O to air (vertical) is the most efficient. The issues which you mostly have with an open system are on the return well side. These problems are obviously nonexistent in a closed loop system. The offset for the closed system are that the initial cost of installation is much more, but if properly installed, gives many, many yeary of efficient trouble-free use.

[TKBMECH]

Having been a mechanical contractor for over 25 yrs, I can tell you a Geo unit is the most eff system out there, but it is also the most expensive to install. I would only install a closed loop system today because the water quality now is sh*t. The money you put into it, you will get back down the road, from energy savings and at re-sell value. To answer your question, yes you can save thousands by installing you ground loop yourself. You HAVE to make sure you install it BELOW your freeze line in the ground, a min of 4ft deep.

[V.B. wells & irrigation]

I could be wrong, but I'd bet that you'd be selling your warranty away by doing any type of the installation process yourself. Your loop fusing (a big manifold can really be a challenge) especially. Around here (S.E. VA) I don't even know of a place which will rent a fusing kit to someone who isn't a HVAC or well drilling contractor. Good luck.

[PA BRED]

Eighteen years ago when we built our house we originally had plans to install a geothermal unit. But we ended up having to cut costs somewhere and that was a big savings back then.

Flash forward to last spring. I'd finally had enough of the old heat pump and flex ducting under the house so I contracted to have a geothermal unit installed.

We had a 4.5 Ton ClimateMaster unit with the hot water generator installed with all new insulated sheet metal ducting. The heat source/sink is three 300' closed loop wells.

All things considered most of the geothermal companies offer comparable systems and warranties. I went with ClimateMaster because all 3 contractors I received bids from stated they had the best parts availability and the other major company took forever to get parts from. Not that I'm looking to have to replace any parts soon but its nice to know.

I couldn't be happier with the system. The wells and loops were $6,000. The geothermal unit with all new ducting was $20,000. If I'd have done the same work with a conventional heat pump system that work would have cost me about $12,000. Surprisingly all three bids were within $500 of each other.

Savings on my utility bill is about 40%.

If you live in the Smithfield, VA or Tidewater area of VA and would like to know who installed my system just B-mail me.

Dan

[V.B. wells & irrigation]

Your costs (at least the well) are right on the money. Remember that the loops are the wells. Included also are the construction of the loop manifold which ties the loops together, the plumbing the loops to the heat pumps, including the circulation pumps, and purging the system.

[PA BRED]

Yep!! The drilling company did everything but hook the discharge and suction of the circ pumps up to the geothermal unit. After that was completed they did the recirc and purge of the system. I was a little concerned that an expansion tank or pressure tank wasn't built into the system but in the 10 months the system has been operating I haven't had an issue with overpressurization in the summer or collapsed hoses in the winter.

It was interesting watching the wells go in. At about 50' they hit a shale layer with all sorts of old shells and shark's teeth!!!

Dan