Lead Eyes and Epoxy?

[mike cozzens]

The thread about fly turners for drying epoxy has me thinking about some of the headaches I have with epoxy.

My primary complaint is that the lead eyes break out of the epoxy. Let me try to explain;

I secure the eyes with thread, sometimes add a drop of zap-a-gap, tie in the various materials, add a few 1/2 hitches and then a whip finish. So far so good. After I finish 6 or a dozen flies (which takes me a mere 4.3 minutes as I am such a great and talented tyer ;-) ) I'll mix up some 5 minute epoxy, goop the heads nice and thick and pop them in the turner. If, after 10minutes or so, there is any part of the lead eye protruding, I'll add an additional coat. If the epoxy remains tacky after sitting overnight, I'll cover it with head cement.

The problem is after catching a few fish, I end up with a clouser with a cracked epoxy head and no eyes. I'm sure I've cracked a few of them bouncing them off various surfaces (like pilings, rocks, gel-coat, the back of my head...) but sometimes it happens when I know I have not bounced the fly off anything. Strange huh?

Does anyone else have this problem and can you offer any suggestions? Sorry for the length of the post, but I wanted to lay out the steps I take in case I'm doing something wrong.

Thanks. And another thing, I really appreciate how civilized this board remains. They are fighting like preschoolers over on the VA board.:yawn:

Mike

[boats]

They do break and if because of hitting structure that's a good thing. Closer is better.

However it you think yours are fragile try longer curing epoxy. Since you have a dryer no need to have the epoxy set up quick. And I think but can't prove there is a pretty big difference in slow cure vs fast cure epoxy glues. I do know epoxies have a shelf life and if old don't give good results at all.

I buy West System epoxy in quarts, not for fly tying but other shop work. They have all sorts of fillers available to let you make the viscosity just like you want. When coating a lot of Clousers will use it thickened with one of the fillers, it gives good results. In Norfolk there is a good West System distributor who has all the books and instruction manuals too. One of the chain boat stores stocks it too but can't recall which one.

Boats

[TimeFlies]

I've experience this problem as well. If I just epoxy the head (thread) in front of the eyes and on top (between) of the eyes it works much better. When the epoxy coats everything from the eye of the hook back and beyond the eyes, it's almost like one solid epoxy piece. This is when the cracking problems start to happen. The goal (in my opinion) for adding epoxy is to prevent the eyes from spinning around the shank. By just adding epoxy around the thread and on top (between the eyes), it prevents the eyes from moving but limits the cracking. Not perfect, but better than the alternatives. Good luck.

[jnicklason]

Ditto what timeFlies said... leave the epoxy off the outside of the eyes. Most of the time when you bonk something, its the eyes that are doing the bonking and they will help protect the inside epoxy. I also think it looks a bit cleaner. As a note, Bob Clouser suggests coating the eyes too, but I think it leads to the problem you are describing... Good Luck.

[bigjim5589]

You may be busting the lead eyes with too much thread pressure while tying. I've had this problem myself. I use flat waxed nylon for most of my tying, and it stretches some & puts a heck of a lot of pressure on them eyes. That center piece of lead can't take it, especially on small size eyes.

I also like to epoxy the outside of the eyes, because I like to use stick on eyes, and they don't stay on unless they get an epoxy coat. I also epoxy between the eyes & the head. This is what Bob Clouser recommends. On big Clousers I'll tie in the eyes & lower body materials, then epoxy the eyes real good, then after the epoxy sets tie in the upper materials & epoxy again.
It adds some extra weight & helps keep the eyes from breaking. Also makes them a bit more durable for hitting things.

I still lose some eyes if I hit hard surfaces, but not like I used to. :thumbup:

[AKFLY]

I think I remember reading somewhere that Bob uses 30 min epoxy. More durable?

Mike

[Chris Newsome]

Lead is a very soft metal and thus lead eyes will break if smacked against a hard object. I never use lead eyes. Try eyes made of brass, aluminum or tungsten. My favorites are made by Spirit River.... Real Eyes Plus and I-balz.

Chris

[dpost2]

I don't believe that super glue or expxy will prevent the eyes from spinning; it doesn't hurt but it doesn't solve the problem. The secret is a secure thread wrap before you add super glue or epoxy. After every 6 or 8 traditional figure-8 wraps, make a couple of horizontal wraps between the eyes and the shank and then tighten. This will squeeze the thread at the base of the eye and, thus, tighten the figure-8 wraps. Somewhere in the eye tying process, add 6-8 saddle wraps and then use the same horizontal wraps between the eye and shank to tighten the saddle wraps. To create a saddle wrap, bring the thread under the hook from the far side, up on the near side in front of the eye, over the near side of the eye, and back down on the near side (so the thread is between you and the shank) at the back of the eye. Then move the thread under the hook to the far side behind the eye, up on the far side, over the top far side of the eye, and down on the far side in front of the eye. Repeat 6-8 times and then add 2-3 horizontal wraps and tighten to snug up the saddle wraps. When you think the eye is secure, turn the hook over so the eyes are down and add a drop of super glue to the thread. It can't hurt.
Other than a non-secure wrap, fishermen usually cause spinning eyes by grabbing the eyes with their hands or pliers and twisting to remove the hook from a fish. Try to grab the shank instead of the eyes (although they do make a good hand hold) when unhooking. Cracked/broken eyes are always caused by bonking something, even the water. If the eyes are totally disappearing, you may be using too much thread tension and breaking the thin section as described by bigjim.
Other than eye problems, most traditional Clousers are ruined when the thread holding the bottom hair (lighter color) is cut by a fish. To prevent this and in addition to epoxying the wraps in front of the eyes, carefully epoxy the hair between the eyes and the wraps hoding the bottom hair. Or just epoxy the entire head, including the eyes, but be sure to coat the bottom wraps. Or for an easy, non-traditional Cllouser, tie the eyes on the bottom of the shank and all the hair on the top of the shank. This leaves less thread exposed and generally results in a longer lasting fly. Unless you bonk something.

[nicksflyshop]

I agree with Chris, Don't use the standard lead eyes. I have swithched to the hour glass eyes in the machined metal or lead. These are made much stronger and will not break as easily as the standard lead eyes. As far as epoxy goes, I don't use it. Use the right eyes and you don't need epoxy. Good Luck! :thumbup:

Nick DelleDonne
The Evening Rise Outfitters (http://www.theeveningrise.com)
Lancaster, PA

[Wild Bill]

All epoxy is brittle and yellows to some extent--some more than others. For the past five years I have used nothing but thinned Marine Goop. You can thin it to penetrate deeply or thin it to be more high build. Multiple coats will give you as thick a coating as desired. It is very tough but not brittle. It also does not yellow at all. Another advantage is that you can mix a batch and use it for months w/o constant mixing. It is great stuff.

[JMadert]

Bill, what is used to "thin" the goop ? And how much of it gets you to the "thinned" state ?

Didn't mean to get off-subject here. Losing the lead-eyes is not a function of the epoxy. It is a problem
with the "lead eyes", which break in the middle, then fall out, on either side of the wraps that once secured them.
If the wraps are breaking through, I 'd say use more wraps.

[Wild Bill]

JM-

There are two products you can use. Both are paint thinners and are available is paint stores. I use Zylene because I already had it. You can also use Tulene. Both can cause cancer if you lock yourself in a small room without ventilation and breathe the fumes 24 hours per day every day. In other words, use in a well ventilated area. I think Dan Blanton has used it longer than me and I have used it for five years. I keep a supply in a bottle with a very small opening and put the lid back on as soon as I use it. I mix several ounces at a time in a small jar (round mustard jar) and keep the lid on it when not in use.

As for mixing, squeeze some Marine Goop out of the tube and pour in the thinner and mix. Proportions are not critical. You will determine by experience how thin you like it. You could actually mix up two batches, one thin batch for penetration and one thick batch for high build.

This is also the best stuff I have found for coating whipped loops on fly lines.

I try to buy Marine Goop but have used Household Goop with the same results. I am not sure that all the different labels on the tubes of Goop are not just a marketing ploy. They seem to do the same thing.

[mike cozzens]

Wow, thanks for all the replies! This is great info and it will definitely ease some of the headaches I experience and hopefully others as well.

I'd like to add that i've used Goop as well with good results. Soft-Tex got a little pricey so I switched over to Goop. I think Cory Routh originally gave me the tip about goop.

Thanks again for all the replies!

Mike

[Flybyknight]

You answered the question when you said "If its sticky, I cover it with head cement"
Epoxy is stoichiometric. That means that the weights of the epoxy and hardener MUST
be accurate and precise, and mixing must be thorough. No way should epoxy fail as
you described.
Look into buying a scale that West Systems sells for around $30.-
I'm a retired chemical engineer who has worked with epoxy for years.

Dick

[dpost2]

Dick,
Weighing your epoxy before you mix it may be overkill for fly tying. Eyeballing the 2 parts and adding or subtracting as needed seems to work pretty well. An easy trick is to dispense the resin and hardener side by side in lines rather than globs because it's easier to get equal quantities.

Bill,
I just use lighter fluid to thin my Goop. It doesn't smell too good, but none of that stuff does.

[JMadert]

Thanks, Bill ... you covered it all, even the two (?'s) I forgot to ask,
covering whipped loops, etc., and Marine vs Household.

I will be experiementing over the wkend, if I can shake this flu.
I'm afraid it's gonna keep me from attending the VCFA banquet
in Hampton. I don't wanna spread it like Typhoid Mary.

[TimeFlies]

Thanks Wild Bill. Just tried the Marine Goop/thinner option and it worked great!!!! Keep the great ideas coming.

[mike cozzens]

Dpost,

"An easy trick is to dispense the resin and hardener side by side in lines rather than globs because it's easier to get equal quantities."

Thanks for the tip. I'm embarrassed I never thought to do it that way. We need a Smilie smacking himself in the forehead.

Mike

[dpost2]

Mike,
Join the club. I constantly run into ideas that are so simple I smack myself in the forehead and say "Why didn't I think of that".