What a Crock!! - READ THIS

[Butthead]

If you care about your hunting rights. write your state congressman a letter NOW!

This moron sits on the Wildlife Advisory Committee with the DNR. He was appointed by Glendenning. Fortunately he is outnumbered in most of the votes...however, WTF is a tree hugging anti-hunter doing on the board that determines our hunting seasons, bag limits, etc.

E. Joseph Lamp must be removed before he gains any traction and starts getting like-minded people on the board with him. I'm not a political guy, but this pi$$ed me off.

The Baltimore Sun printed this Commentary in Wednesday's 9/12/07 edition.

Stop Maryland's season of cruelty: fall bow hunting -- baltimoresun.com (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.bowhunting12sep12,0,3461151.story)

[LILY]

This guy needs to be shot with a bow. I would love to see this idiot run around for a while.

This has to be a joke.:confused:

Phil(lily):yes:

I will be hunting Sat. Morning if this cool fronts pushes in.

[brewman555]

I use to live and hunt in MD........Bill Burton is a joke and this Lamp guy is a real AHOLE....All Maryland hunters should write the DNR and tell them to get rid of him before he gets rid of all deer hunting........Good Luck and Be Safe.........Mike

[TAILWALKER]

They gave his email. You MD hunters should overwhelm his email by sending countless emails on what you think about his opinion and you should also let your newspaper know what you think about printing his propoganda. Rest assured it's people like this that get some liberal environmental group or even a federal or state judge to side with them when they file suit arguing it is inhumane and then you could lose your right to bowhunt in MD as there are definately a lot of anti hunters there.

Remeber a few years ago when the feds were going to let MD start to shoot swans and one of the liberal environmental groups filed suit in federal court and some liberal federal judge put the kibosh on it and that was it.

The garbage about making the bow out to look so inhumane and that "the deer rarely drop in their tracks when shot" just shows his ignorance since few deer shot with a gun drop in their tracks and have to be tracked often enough, especially with a shotgun and probably more are wounded with guns then bows but then that's why we are at the top of the foodchain and deer aren't.

[chcltlabz]

This guy's been on the Wildlife Advisory Council for several years now. He knows what he's doing, and knows what he's saying, and I'd be willing to bet he's trying to get people riled up, because I guarantee he's gotten at least a couple death threats, nasty threatening emails, emotional responses etc. that he can use against hunters. You'd better bet he's keeping every one of those responses and will use them against us any chance he gets. Don't play into this fools hands, he's fishing and you're all biting. I'd be willing to bet he's watching several websites just like this one looking for this type of emotional response.

He prints this same type of article just about the same time every year, and will likely follow it up with some of the letters that people write him, undoubtedly threatening his life, or bodily harm, just to show what a bunch of savages hunters are.

Do us all a favor and don't play into his hand. If you're going to send him a letter, use a level head, stick to the facts, and for God's sake, use spellcheck:wacko:

[Bullbuster]

You'd be surprised at how many tree huggers sit on political seats. Many of them are put or should I say backed 100% by many anti groups. Its there way of getting another leg in the door for banning gun and hunting rights. What better way than in a position that makes the laws.

[Clark W. Griswold]

Do us all a favor and don't play into his hand. If you're going to send him a letter, use a level head, stick to the facts, and for God's sake, use spellcheck:wacko:

Exactly.

Calm down folks, it's mandated by law that one member of the Wildlife Advisory Committee be a representative of the animal rights type groups. He is outnumbered by representatives of other groups that have enough sense to listen to the science.

Attacking him personally will only give him what he wants. He writes these letters to the Sun every year. They publish every one he sends, but don't ever seem to publish any responses.

He always calls himself a non-hunter, but it's pretty clear he is very anti-hunting.

[Old-Grady]

It's time for our goverment to start doing thing's right and that doesn't include putting a anti on a governing board such as this. What it boils down to is he gets a free ticket along with a nice free pay check to come up with nothing but total BS. This type of goverment needs to change so the right kind of people are hired and are doing what it takes instead of having to listen to the BS from a guy like that.

[mobilguy66]

Boy......I thought PA. was bad being led down the path of destruction by that nimrod Gary Alt who's sitting back laughing at the mess he created for PA. It's suprizing that the Sun would print that article....Anyway, Good Luck this year, Paul

[done workin]

Even former Sun outdoor sports columnist Bill Burton has stated that bow hunting does not support clean kills. He wrote in his Maryland Deer Hunting Guide, "By necessity, most bowmen have become adept at tracking cripples - they have no choice. Seldom do their deer drop in their tracks."

Yet another stupid statement by Bill Burton and another reason I hate his writings. I used to read his reports to "get my fix", now I just come here.

My broadheads punch a 1 1/2" hole in the lungs when I do my part and put the arrow where it belongs. They drop inside of 100yds. every time.

I've crippled and wounded deer with a rifle/shotgun because I didn't do my part, tracked them several hundred yards, never to be found. Guess they should ban all hunting?

[Dave7]

I believe Glendenning appointed him.
He was a Prof at AACC when I went there 20+ years ago.
NJ's Gov is fixing to LOAD their Board with antis

[flats cat]

I believe Glendenning appointed him.
He was a Prof at AACC when I went there 20+ years ago.
NJ's Gov is fixing to LOAD their Board with antis

Corzine shot down bear hunting there as soon as he came to office. My Aunt and Uncle live in upstate NJ and the bears are a serious problems up there.

[Butthead]

My Email to Joe Lamp:

Mr. Lamp,



After reading your article in The Baltimore Sun’s commentary section, I am disturbed about your words for several reasons.



First of all, the fact that a person that is un-educated about the states population issues with wildlife is sitting on the wildlife commission’s review board has me a bit perplexed. Aren’t you supposed to be doing what is best for the wildlife that inhabits our state? Isn’t that what the commission was created for in the first place? Shouldn’t your personal beliefs be set aside for the greater good of the animals in which you are protecting, and the citizens of the state you are serving?



Do you think disease is a much better cause of death for a deer? How about getting hit by a car, and having it’s front legs broken, only to crawl into the woods and lie there suffering for days, even weeks. That is of course, if a bunch of neighborhood dogs don’t get wind of it, and harass it to the point of insanity. Or how about the fact that inbreeding would create retarded and abnormal sub-breeds of the animal in question?



I think your words in the Baltimore Sun, were not only fictitious, they were immature, and self serving. If you had things your way, White Tailed Deer would populate this state so fast that they would become a nuisance creature beyond anything we have ever imagined. Hunters are there to take part in tradition, as well as providing a healthy alternative to store bought proteins. It’s this tradition that keeps the taxpayers of this state from experiencing much higher car insurances costs, deaths on the road, and a host of other problems that would be a direct result of a hunting ban. Our existence, albeit grotesque to you and those like you, may save your life one day. It’s people like us that keep the population in check, so that animals are not running all over our crowded roadways. And no matter how many deer hunters take every year, the population always comes back stronger the next year.



We hunt because we were raised to. We hunt because it provides our family with healthy nutrition. I’m quite certain that if your great-grandfather read your article in yesterday’s paper, he would be ashamed of his great grandson’s beliefs and remarks.



I commend you for being passionate about a belief. However, it is your belief, and to try and instill your beliefs on others is where you cross the line into immaturity. I do not go out and write articles trying to recruit hunters to join me. Hunting is not for everyone, and I realize that. Your beliefs are not for everyone. Keep them within your user group, and I’ll keep mine within my user group.


His Reply:

Dear Mr. Taylor,


Please excuse the tardiness of my reply. You have no idea how many positive emails I have been getting and words of encouragement for the Op-Ed piece I wrote, along with some concerns, like yours, from the hunting community, as one would expect. It is controversial – more than I realized. I am trying to respond to each email individually, while working my full-time job, too.



I am indeed very concerned about our state's wildlife and have learned a great deal about it being on WAC since 1999. That's one of the reasons I wrote my Op-Ed piece: To tell the truth, which I did, sir. Maryland's deer are the responsibility of all Marylanders. My article is accurate with one exception. We goofed on the starting date -- Friday. The correct date was in the earlier edits but somehow it got switched and well, we goofed. I apologize for that.



I am terribly concerned about many of the other issues you have raised though, such as disease, deer getting hit by cars, and more. But to bring them up in the context of my targeted (no pun intended) piece on the problems of bow hunting is called fallacious reasoning. More specifically, it is probably best termed as what we call in the communications field that I teach in, a "red herring." It has absolutely nothing to do with my point of argument. They are different matters that also need addressing, too.



As for people hunting because they were "raised to." That's one I've never heard before said quite that way. Usually it comes as: "It's my heritage -- sometimes followed by "you idiot/moron/etc." (referencing me of course -- ha, ha). That too, is called a fallacy -- it is an "argument from time," and presupposes that what occurred in the past is the way it always should be. If that were true, sir, we'd still be issuing Brown Bess muskets to our troops in Iraq instead of M-4s and other modern firearms. Times change and with that change comes behavior change necessary to adapt.



While we obviously have our differences, but I sure do appreciate you taking the time to email me. And may I ask a favor? Would you consider becoming a member of the NRA like I am, or consider re-upping your membership if you already are one? While they are misguided on the sport hunting issues as I see it, they are strong supporters of the 2nd Amendment and we can use all the help we can get there, don't you think? Thanks so much, sir, and take good care, Joe Lamp

[Jim Bright]

I no longer live near Baltimore so I really have no interest in reading The Sun. But I think a Sun boycott would be in order. If you don't like what they print cancel your subscription.

[Drbrownsuit]

I think Joe has ben hitting the pipe a little too hard. He is very articulate, but very stupid on this matter. Even many people that "choose not to hunt" know the critical importance harvesting deer each year to regulate populations.

[rbr]

This guy's been on the Wildlife Advisory Council for several years now. He knows what he's doing, and knows what he's saying, and I'd be willing to bet he's trying to get people riled up, because I guarantee he's gotten at least a couple death threats, nasty threatening emails, emotional responses etc. that he can use against hunters. You'd better bet he's keeping every one of those responses and will use them against us any chance he gets. Don't play into this fools hands, he's fishing and you're all biting. I'd be willing to bet he's watching several websites just like this one looking for this type of emotional response.

He prints this same type of article just about the same time every year, and will likely follow it up with some of the letters that people write him, undoubtedly threatening his life, or bodily harm, just to show what a bunch of savages hunters are.

Do us all a favor and don't play into his hand. If you're going to send him a letter, use a level head, stick to the facts, and for God's sake, use spellcheck:wacko:


Good post. We do ourselves no good whatsoever with vitriol.

Bert

[TDLewis]

Here's my thread with Mr. Lamp thus far. I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of the data that he purports exists. I'll be surprised if I get any logical arguments from this guy.

Hi Joe,

I would greatly appreciate it if you could send me links to these studies as I am not familiar with them. I skimmed through Mr. Marr's site and only found anecdotal evidence. I am very interested in reading the material your are reference; particularly any material that contains actual statistics. Please send me links to the data you find the most convincing.

I don't disagree that some animals are not killed cleanly, but I have some doubt 1) as to the frequency that this occurs and 2) how you could ever hope to measure such a thing. I am in the field quite a bit - typically every weekend during hunting season and I can't recall having ever seen a limping deer. My father happened upon one once and he dispatched it, tagged it, and we ate it. If I ever encounter the same situation, I will do the same (as long as it is legal).

I can't help but think that banning hunting because of these anecdotal mishaps would be like banning driving because of the occasional wreck, or banning pet ownership because of the occasional case of abuse. You could make similar arguments regarding the raising of domestic animals (hoof and mouth disease, abuse, generally inhumane treatment, etc..). Do you enjoy golf? Perhaps I could make the same argument regarding the pollution that results from fertilizing golf courses and their contribution to dead zones in the bay.

In conclusion, I would question your premise that this happens as frequently as you infer. Additionally, it is pretty clear that you have some basic disagreement with hunting. Without data presented to the contrary, it would certainly seem that the source of your disagreement with bow hunting is your personal disapproval of hunting in general.

I can understand your personal decision not to hunt, what I can not tolerate is your desire to take my right to make my own decision on the matter.

I'll look forward to seeing the data that you are referring to.

Best Regards,
Trevor Lewis
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On 10/1/07, Joe Lamp <j19lamp@comcast.net> wrote:
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Dear Mr. Lewis,
Thanks so much for your email. I have been getting hundreds of them as you can guess. It has been incredible. Sadly, I could not put in all the citations in my article and still make it flow properly. Too much space would have been taken up and the empirical complexities would have been impossible for many to understand. I not trying to talk down to anyone -- it's just that if one has not been trained in this stuff, it is oftentimes a foreign language. I've studied it, I've taught it, and I've done it, many many times.
Anthony Marr, in this blog, has provided many of the citiations. They are listed early-on in all the "back and forth" that has taken place. If I had them in machine readable format, I would gladly email them over. But I don't. Again, Marr provides many. I don't know if he cites Ripley or not. That's the classic, the hunting community brings up to me. They forget to tell me though that even the authors of Ripley make it clear that Ripley's conclusions cannot be easily extrapolated to other sites But they seem to forget that "little piece of info." Ha, ha. Big problems and some are glaringly obvious.
As for hunting, what type should I do? Deer, geese, ducks, rabbits, quail, squirrels? Done it all as a kid. Grew up with hunting as a family tradition, know a Brenneke from a pumpkin ball, and Remington 870 (my favorite shotgun) from an 1100. Just realized the errors in so much of this as I became an adult.
Trevor, once you read the studies, I think you will at least see where I'm coming from. We may not agree but I think you'll see I'm not off the wall by a longshot. Thank you for your email. Joe Lamp

----- Original Message -----
From: Trevor Lewis
To: j19lamp@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:17 PM
Subject: Bow Season for Deer

Mr. Lamp,

I recently read your editorial regarding Maryland bowhunting and I felt the urge to respond with a few of my own thoughts.

First and foremost, I would like to question your statement below:
"Well-documented studies testify that wounding and suffering happen time and again when the bow is the weapon of choice."

Which studies are you referring to? I think your argument would have been much more substantiated if you included actual statistics from these studies. Additionally, there is no way to counter your argument unless you present actual evidence to support your thoughts...and not merely your emotional response.

As a hunter, I am aware that every animal that I shoot is wounded and suffers just as every animal that is killed suffers (whether for meat, leather, fur, etc..). I think that part of being a responsible hunter is minimizing this suffering by making as clean of a kill as is possible. Another part of being a hunter is accepting that in order for meat to make its way to your table, it must first be killed. Killing is never humane. I have always thought that the only logically consistent viewpoint for one to take a stand against hunting is to completely abstain from eating all meat, or to simply eat carrion. Furthermore, I have always thought that I have just as much of a right to kill and consume an animal as any other predator in the world. The only difference between us and them is that we have the capacity to discuss it!

I hope that you would take the opportunity to actually participate in hunting (even as a non-hunter) before making up your mind on the issue. I think you would be surprised by how much most hunters care about the environment, respect the animals, and most of all, simply love being a part of nature. As evidence, I'd offer up the existence of the countless conservation groups committed to habitat work.

Best Regards,
Trevor Lewis